Post Orycon 18 Discussion

From: Karen Rall <quarong at eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:22:51 -0800 (PST)

        Yea Gods! I just spent the past half hour simply going through all of your comments about the filking at Orycon 18, and there are a lot of wonderful points I now want to respond to. I'll see if I can keep this as short and organized as possible, but many of you know I do much better at the latter than I ever do at the former. :) Therefore, in an order that probably only scans in some deep crevice in my brain, here we begin:

        CIRCLE SIZE THIS YEAR = Having two rooms certainly cut down on the problems we've had in prior years with a group just far too large for anyone to get more than one or two turns in an entire night. I sort of got the impression that the total number of filk attendees, even accounting for the split rooms, might have been lower this year. (Perhaps because many of them were so frustrated with the old situation they chose not to come.) This would have been odd given that the con itself topped out at over 1650, one of the (if not *the*) largest turnouts ever; but maybe it was just my imagination.

        CHAOS VS. BARDIC = I'm glad to see more and more NW filks are willing to experiment with both of these styles, because each have their strong and weak points. With 2 rooms available for us to use in the evenings, people who have a strong preference for one or the other were also not forced to endure a style they were uncomfortable with. I wish this was possible at more of the large cons, but that is not always possible. (See my remarks under "Space Considerations" below.)

        As far as the "user beware" undercurrent in the Chaos room was concerned, I think the motivation was probably a result of this format still being very new to many filkers in the NW, particularly those from the Portland area which has been a traditional stronghold for Bardic circles, and the people who were more or less coordinating the circles that weekend still felt uncomfortable enough with it that they wanted to err on the side of making sure all the attendees really understood the possible difference. I'm glad to hear that everyone here either seemed to be oblivious to that message, or else felt it was unnecessary. This reaffirms my belief that Chaos is a very valid and fair format in groups where everyone is more interested in a mutual sharing of music, than in satisfying their own egos, and where there are a couple of outgoing individuals willing to speak up and moderate the logjams as needed. [I think it's most effective in larger circles with a diverse array of performers, many of whom may not be known by the other folks present. Bardic works best in a smaller gathering where a good number of turns is possible, and/or where group dynamics indicate a fairly structured environment would be in everyone's best interests (lots of new or more laid-back participants, a couple of known ego-freaks, children, etc).]

        As far as better explanations of how each circle format works are concerned, we went over a lot of ideas on this topic back in April. The main ones were regular in-circle announcements, program book write-ups, signs on the door, a brochure available at the circle, 101 panels; and more education outside of cons through email, house filks, and even a newsletter. I got some ideas in the works to address a couple of these means. In the meanwhile, I still have a copy of the "Circle Types" glossary I wrote up online, which I could mail to any of you who are interested (or post here if there is sufficient demand to see it again). I actually also have our entire spring conversation on my hard-drive, and could upload it again if one of you was really that curious.

        TWO-TIER CIRCLES = Someone mentioned that the Fri night Bardic gathering at one point was made up of a limited circle of chairs, with more rows behind them, leaving some people feeling as if there was a distinction between audience and performer. I'm sorry if this was the case, but I'm sure it was not intentional. Usually when a circle is knocked out for a filk, it's just that "knocked out": We start grabbing chairs fast as we can to create a rough circle for the number of people currently /shortly expected in the room, stack the excess out of the way, and leave the rest to be inhabited by late arrivals or reshuffled later. Generally this is being done by a half dozen people all with slightly different agendas; who may also be reluctant to disturb the main room arrangement more than necessary, especially if they're expected to put it back together later. In addition, there's the fact that one can only make the "inner circle" so large and still have everyone be able to hear everyone else; multiple rings is much more effective once the internal diameter has reached about 15-20 ft. There are actually some con attendees who like to sit further back, able to listen without being quite so noticeable, unlike they would be in the main circle. Finally, we are often considering that after 1-2am the circle starts shrinking and those who stay the latest are generally the ones with the most gear; making condensing the circle later a royal pain despite the awkwardness involved in shouting across it. This doesn't mean though, that if you start noticing the circle obviously has grown larger than the original lay-out folks had planned for, and that you're not the only one visibly itching to be "part of the inner circle", that you can't speak up and say "Hey, can we take a minute and make this circle a bit larger (or smaller) so more of us can easily participate?" Just about everyone in the room is going to look at you and say "Uh yeah. Give me a second to move my books here so I can push my chair back, and I'll help you grab a stack of new seats." They aren't being mean, they're just generally too busy singing to notice or act, so speak up.

        BARDIC "HOT SPOT" = This can be a problem. I think several of you did a nice job of covering the pros and cons of any given solution: Warning a newcomer where the "hot spot" is gives them the opportunity to be prepared by the time it gets to them; but it also means that they could exploit this knowledge by sitting down just ahead of it and thereby annoying everyone else further along in the circle who have already been waiting a long time for their turn. I could also point out that telling each newcomer to the room where the "hot spot" is could be disruptive to our primary activity: music. The solution to the latter problem would be to use a visual token (bear, staff, etc). Running a Chaos room solves the entire mess; as does having the space-to-population ratio needed to maintain a reasonable circuit time in the Bardic room, more or less. Finally, if a newcomer sits down in the "hot spot" and isn't prepared to respond, the circle could go on to the next couple of attendees and then go back to that individual once they had gotten oriented; just as we've begun doing when any filker in the Bardic room needs more time to find their selection.

        CONCERTS = I really like these too. They give the performers an opportunity to have the spotlight for a little while, and to really show off a wider range of what they can do. Meanwhile the audience has a chance to learn some more about the wonderful musicians we have in the NW and other parts of the nation, and to hear new or unusual material that may not come up in a circle gathering. Concerts are also a very good way to introduce newcomers to filk, especially those who might be kind of unsure about this whole "folksinging thing" and who would likely be turned off by sitting through the varied pacing and skill exhibitions of a circle.

        For those of you who mentioned you'd really like to have a chance to participate in a concert slot, I have several remarks. One, we have been adding some new faces these past few cons (Anne Prather, Cat Faber & company, Jeff Hitchin, etc); and I'm sure we will continue to do so in the future. It's mostly a matter of coming to the attention of the person organizing the concerts, either directly or by impressing enough other filkers, they go to the coordinator and say "You really got to give so-and- so a slot." Two, sometimes the coordinator figures out they have more slots open than they already have bodies in mind, and they may open them up on a first-come-first-served basis, either via word of mouth or a sign-up sheet somewhere (likely the Con Office or a filk dealer's table). However, given that there are often only 1 or 2 of these openings, your chances of finding out in time aren't great. Three, some cons run "One Shot Concerts", a slot in which a whole variety of people can take turns performing in front of an audience. Generally, you only can do one piece so it's not too different from singing in the circle; but you are on stage, with a microphone, and a full audience so it's at least a half step up; and if you impress them enough you may get asked to do a full set at another con. Finally, while it has very little to do with cons, there are Open-Mike Sessions out in most communities that a musician can perform at to gain additional experience. (I know of some in the Seattle area if you're interested; but in general start with your local folkmusic society, ethnic pub, user sponsored radio station, folk music newsletter, or instrument store bulletin board to find listings.)

        Again, the problems here are those eternal enemies of all sentient beings, namely Space & Time; or shall I say, the inadequecy thereof. There are only so many concert slots a coordinator can realistically schedule at any given event; and more often than not, there are going to be X + Y musicians to fill them, so choices will have to be made. Oftentimes those choices will be made in favor of the BNF's (here meaning "big name filkers") who the bulk of the musically oriented attendees wish to hear every year, or who are the Musical GOH that weekend, or who hold enough sway in the local community it would be impolitic to ignore them. What spaces remain (if any) then generally go to a local musician who's been around for awhile but never got much attention, or to someone who's really been pestering for a chance. Having more concert slots so more people could demonstrate their skills would be wonderful, but this means one of several things would occur: One, The open circle would have to wait until after the concerts are over, often sometime after midnight, reducing the opportunity everyone has to participate in general singing, (espcially given that cons large enough to have multiple concerts will also have huge circles). If you're running them Fri night, you can't start too early because much of your intended audience, much less performers, may not yet be on-site or settled in. If you choose Sat night, you have to wait until after the Masquerade (Talent Show, Diplomatic Reception, whatever) to start, because the bulk of folks are at this event, and it often runs late; even later by the time everyone files out of there, changes clothes, gets their gear, and assembles in the filkroom. Two, there would have to be space at the hotel to have 2 filkrooms so that the circle can take place at the same time as the concerts. (But then you're splitting your audience, which makes your detractors wonder if you really can draw as many people as you said could to warrant extra space; not to mention many filkers bitching about having to choose between activities.) Three, you could try running some concerts during daytime slots, but then you're competing against everyone's diurnal interests (sleeping, attending panels, shopping, working as a merchant, etc). You also have to fight a lot harder to convince the other committee members that you can really entertain enough people in this manner to warrant them giving you a room during what's primetime for them. Right now, the only people who are commonly acknowledged to be this popular are that con's Music GOH (mainly because they are a BNF and have received a lot of publicity for that event) and Heather Alexander.

        SPACE CONSIDERATIONS = Ok, I've been gradually dancing around this topic, so I'll devote this next section specifically to it. First, I have a question for all of you: How many of you have ever attended a ConCom meeting during which those individuals were attempting to allocate space for each of their events in the hotel (especially a new site)? For those of you who haven't, but might be interested in doing so in the future, I'd recommend a hard hat, a staff, and a tranq gun (for you or them is subject to debate). And I'm only slightly exaggerating here! (Ok, I've attended some that have gone civily, but others have gotten really nasty.) Suffice to say, even when everyone is being nice and trying hard to work things out for the best benefit of the con, there are still multiple factions all trying to gain the resources to host as many of their activities as they can; and only a limited amount of hotel floorspace and con hours in which to do so.

        I laid out some of the tough choices facing Concert scheduling above, and the situation isn't much better for song circles, panels, or jam sessions. Filking is largely considered to be a fringe element of fandom by many of those who run conventions. Overall, we generally rank below gaming and Kidcon, but above fan clubs. They figure we should be able to have a room in the evening (after all there isn't as much demand for space then anyway), and maybe a couple of panels during the day (say Filk 101 and Music Theory 104); but after that it's our problem. Orycon is unusual in the NW as there are some filkers with voices on the committee who have argued successfully for more resources, and they get them at the irregular Portland summer cons too. In the greater Seattle area, we did well at the last Westercon, and should do well at this one too (same folks in charge, and me advocating from the start); but with our other cons, it's a major fight.

        Some of this really depends on the duration and location of the con in question. Obviously a Wester or Worldcon held over 4 or 5 days in a huge highclass hotel (or across multiple sites) is going to be able to devote more resources to each sector of fandom; than a 2 day, local con in a small city will be. Larger cons also draw more attendees who are interested in music programming, and more BNF's to attract and excite those attendees. Orycon right now is really at the maximum limits of that hotel. They've talked about moving to another site, but no feasible alternative has yet been found. They've been talking about limiting memberships for the last couple of years, and next year it will be a max of 1600 people. This year they were finally able to get the Hotel to release the last suite (and they've been there around 6 yrs at least), and decided only to have one video room; which meant they were able to rejuggle a lot of things, and make provisions for items such as a second filkroom at night. Not every con is able or willing to be this flexible however. Some hotels just suck for space, some committees have no clue how to lay things out to their best advantage (in terms of security and crowd flow as well as usable programming areas), and some get too devoted to one approach even when their demands change. Even if the committee is willing to give the filkers a room (or two) at night, finding ones with adequate space that are neither off in nowhere land nor are right next to the dance (or hospitality or gaming, or the Camarila) may be literally impossible, even if the filkers are given a major say in the decision.

        Convention committees have to consider what the "real demand" for any given activity is going to be; ie how many people will truly show up at this event, vs another one which could be run with those same resources. Sometimes, they're way off on this calculation; but they're acting based on the information and biases they have at hand. We can help shift this math in our favor, but we need to be realistic ourselves: A local, special interest like Anglicon (a British media event, last year c. 500) may barely warrant a place for a songcircle in the evening; unless their main guest has ties to folkmusic. A local, general event like Rusty (c. 1000) can support circles both nights and a half dozen or so concerts, plus maybe a 101 panel. Regionals like Norwes (c. 2800) should have 2 circle rooms if possible, a wide slate of concerts, and a variety of panels depending on the attendees interests. Overestimating is often worse that underestimating, as not only have you wasted a lot of effort fighting for resources you didn't end up needing, but you've now made it even harder to get them next year or at another similar event, even if the circumstances change. (Of course, like many things in fandom, one often doesn't know how filking events will turn out until after they are over; making planning more of an art than a science.)

        Many of you have advocated for daytime events, both as a way to gain more hours for filk programming, and so you wouldn't have to choose between concerts and circle (or whatever) in the evenings. I've already explained above why daytime space is harder to obtain, mainly because there are so many other activities going on while the sun is up. However, I have a couple of aspects left over: First, as one of you mentioned, we already have music related programming during the day at many cons, with Filk 101 panels, Intro to Lyric & Music Writing discussions, the recent advent of children's filks, the jam session at Ory 18, daytime concerts by major musical guests, etc. Those are no small potatoes. Second, many filkers, including those performers you want to see in concert, have other interests which occupy their time during the day: some are running dealer's tables or helping in the art show, others are writers or scientists busy speaking on panels, some are heavily involved in running cons and busy taking care of those responsibilities, some just want time to see the wide range of con activities beyond musical events. I love filking, and cheerfully spend all night doing it; but during the day you'll rarely see me moving at less than warp 6 as I try to take in a whole bunch of other things at the con. Third, no matter what solution you come up with, you're still going to have to make choices how you spend your time. I've been to Worldcons which do concerts and a lot of other music programming during the day, and the choices between what to go to at what time just get tougher. But stop and think, if you're not having to choose between a minimum of two events you really want to see, at least a few times during the weekend, how good of a con is it really?

        COFFEEHOUSE IDEA = This was a very creative suggestion that I kind of like, but I question how feasible it would be at a con. Assuming that you could find a room in which to hold it, there would be some other difficulties involved, most of them related to the idea of serving/selling food at such a gathering. Hotels actually make most of their money off of their restaurants, not their rooms. As a result, they get really touchy anytime a group brings up something that might cut into that market. Most mundane conventions solve this problem by having the hotel cater any of their events where food is appropriate. SF/F cons have convinced them that our Hospitality isn't really a threat because you're talking limited snacks, not "real food"; the same for room parties, and even turning a blind eye to guests having groceries in their rooms. (At some hotels, we've been able to go one better and convince the staff that offering a cheap snack bar with hot dogs, etc will actually keep more people eating in the hotel, and make them enough money they can feel comfortable about cutting prices & ignoring those other items; while the fans get cheaper food options onsite.) Adding another room to this list to hold a Coffehouse style music gathering would probably push most hotels way beyond their limits.

        Collecting money for this activity would be even tougher. I said above that hotels can deal with con hospitality because it's only snacks, the other reason is because the con is *not* making any money on that service. (Yes, hospitality begs for donations, but if you look at any post-con financial report you'll see that pop & food are one of the biggest outlays on the list.) I like how someone suggested dividing the proceeds between the con as a whole, and the performer who was singing at the time (though that would definitely require a sophisticated record-keeping system); but I actually have some question as to how much this scheme would really bring in, especially by the time you stayed out of the hotel's "real food" ballywick and competed against free food at Hospitality and room parties.

        I think this idea has some potential, but more if it was run as a one day community event, rather than at a con. [More on this later.]

reply        LARRY C = Please forgive me for picking on you here, but you raised some issues concerning usage of hotel space that are unfortunately based on misconceptions that I feel need to be corrected:
> Orycon *owns* the hotel during the convention weekend.

	WRONG!  We are there as their guests, a private group which has 
	purchased the right to use a good portion of their meeting space
	in exchange for X amount of money and the promise that we will
	bring in Y people to rent hotel rooms and buy food that weekend.
	If everything works out well, both parties profit.  If not, the 
	con and the hotel stand to lose money; the hotel may suffer a 
	good deal of property damage (ask the Bellevue Hilton & Rustycon 12
	or the SeaTac Red Lion & Norwescon 9); and the con may find 
	themselves without a home for the next year (see Alternacon and 
	the aborted Dreamcon 11).  Hotels as a rule set aside 10% of their
	rooms, including one or more suites and maybe a meeting space, which
	the con cannot have access to; no matter how many people register
	for the event.  (This is often because they have a long term contract
	with one or more local corporations to provide business accomodations.
	Sometimes the hotel will release these rooms in the couple of weeks
	prior to the con, if demand is that high, and business demand lacking
	that weekend.  Other times, after a con has sufficiently proven
	its drawing power, the hotel may also be willing to share more of
	its resources; which is what happened for Ory this year.)


> Get a suite next to hospitality for the Coffeehouse.


	As I said above, Orycon is now using all of the suites available in
	that hotel.  Even assuming you did have another suite open in a hotel
	and that their management was not going to have a problem with the
	event you were putting into it, who's going to pay for it?  Suites
	can be quite expensive to rent, and a Coffeehouse alone is unlikely
	to pay for it.  Now you're back under the above headings of 
	convincing the con that it is worth their while to devote some of
	their space to your event.


> What about holding musical activities in the lobby?


	First of all, how are you defining "lobby"?  The Red Lion and many
	other hotels have various out-of-the-way corridor areas where a 
	small gathering (say half dozen people, *maybe* a dozen) could 
	occur, assuming neither hotel nor con security decides to have a
	cow about you being there.  (The earlier into the morning it is,
	or the more centrally located the space, the more they are likely
	to do so.)  The main lobby is generally right out:  It's the center
	of their business area, and is going to be very physically and 
	auditorily obstructive for anyone else trying to do anything in
	that space.


reply> What about the hotel bar?


	John Bunnell actually covered this point fairly well:  First, of 
	all, you would need a bar which was designed to showcase musical
	activities, which many (including the quiet bar at the Orycon
reply	Red Lion) are not.  Second, you would have to convince the hotel
	to let you use this space; and if you think negotiating space 
	desires with a concom is hard . . . .  The bar is the hotel's way
	of continuing to make money off of the mundane population even 
	while they have a convention in-house.  So you have to convince 
	them that whatever you want to put in that space is either going
	to be appealing to their regular customers (which a concert 
	style filk gathering probably will not be), or else that it will
	make them an equivalent amount of money.  (Maybe not only for that
	night, but for any business they might lose later because they shut
	their doors to the public then.)  Next you have to have their paid 
	staff on premises, and be willing to abide by all of the rules
	of their licensing agreement.  In most cases under WA law this 
	means that regardless of whether or not they are serving food,
	minors are not allowed in.  Now Westercon 46 (Seattle 1993) was
	able to hold a long series of filk concerts in the hotel's quiet
	bar that was an absolute blast.  But this required some creative
	negotiating with the hotel, and took place on Sunday evening when
	the bar was regularly closed.  The bar itself *was* closed that
	evening, no alcohol or anything else was served, no hotel staff
	were present; we simply had the space to use for an all-ages 
	musical gathering.  This is to say, such arrangements are not
	impossible, simply infeasible at many sites, and often more 
	difficult than is worth arranging at most of the rest.

	FILK  at  UPCOMING CONS = I'm pleased to see that there is the demand

to hold more musical events at upcoming conventions. I have contacts with many of the cons in the area, and generally either already have some idea or can track down what each of them are planning in this dept from year to year. (For those of you wondering where & when each of these events is taking place, and wanting guest & registration info; stay tuned! I'll be posting my master conlist in the next day or two.) The current status is: -- RUSTYCON = This has kind of been a rough year for them, and the bulk of their program planning is taking place as we speak. They have assured me that the filkers will have a room in the evenings (though a different one from last year) to use for a song circle or concerts; however not much has been done in the way of panels, and given the small turnout at them last year, I don't think it would be worth the effort to try and organize them now. I know Steve Dixon is attending that weekend, and I will be there all day Saturday. We can certainly put together a few concerts if some of you are interested, and maybe a bs session somewhere too if folks want to talk shop. (Look for flyers.)
-- NORWESCON = The last I heard, Chuck & Maura were going to be coordinating things again this year, and the committee was interested in considering more musically oriented programming, though space is going to be at a premium given that this is their 20th year celebration. They are in the middle of their programming brainstorming blitz right now, and with the holidays fast approaching, little more will be known until January. -- ANGLICON = Last year they tried to at least offer folks a space for singing, but due to several points of confusion it was pre-empted by films. This year they are in a different hotel, and the committee intends to be a little more attentive to making sure filkers have a space, though the con is not really of a type to support anything more than that. -- WESTERCON = My current baby. Our main program planning blitz will be from Jan-Mar, but I already have a lot of plotting going on in my own head and some preliminary discussions happening with West Coast musicians. I've taken note of all your great ideas here for consideration, and I encourage you to let me know of others as they occur to you. I'll let you in on some of my own thinking sometime in the next few weeks, once a couple of more things are firmed up and I have the spare time to write said message. -- ORYCON = Golden Bough will be the Music GOH's next year, and I'm sure they'll be taking into account our conversation here, as well as other feedback they received.
-- OTHERS = RadCon, MosCon, InCon, VikingCon, & GeoCon are all really too small (200-500 person range) to support anything other than a small circle, if that. DragonFlight & Potlatch are too specialized (gaming & writing respectively).

Ok, I've rambled far longer than I expected to yet again. One of these days I might have the regular access that some of you do, and I'll be able to be a frequent rather than a lengthy participant in the conversations; but the way my brain works, I think this format actually works better for me even so. While I ignored the great "Let's Hold a FilkCon in the NW" thread in this message, it hasn't slipped my notice. Give me a little bit to go review all of your wonderful messages on that theme, and I'll be back. As ever your feedback, either to the list or my personal account at <quarong at eskimo.com>, is welcome.

			Until then,
				Quarong

Received on 12/01/96